Faces in the Crowd: Interview Series Part I

I've always said that crowdsourcing.com would be a group blog. Now I finally get to prove it. Shazz Mack (her nom de plume) has been corresponding with me since the launch of crowdsourcing.com. I recently persuaded her to contribute to the site. We agreed that it might be illuminating to conduct some Q&A's with people involved in various aspects of crowdsourcing. Shazz decided to interview Lise Gagné, a highly successful iStockPhoto.com photographer. I recommend the interview to all my readers, not just those following the effects of crowdsourcing models in the stock photography. Gagné's experience is revealing, not least because it shows the rapidly increasing economic potential in high-volume crowdsourcing models like iStockPhoto.com. Gagné also feels the microstock model offers advantages over the traditional stock agency route; fascinating given the disparity in pricing structure. At any rate, you'll all draw your own conclusions, and both Shazz and I hope to hear them in the comments section. Without further ado, I turn the blog over to Shazz ...

La vedette du stock
Meet Lise Gagné, the world’s first crowdsourcing photography star. With over 390,000 downloaded sales of her stock photographs in just 3 years, Québec photographer Lise Gagné has emerged as a global “stock star” in the world of crowdsourcing. What has made her so successful? According to Lise, it’s a mélange of passion, creativity, discipline and a very personal goal. (Interview and translation from original French by Shazz Mack)

A self-portrait, by Lise Gagné

What are the skills you apply to crowdsourcing?
I’m a digital stock photographer. And, as a former Web/multimedia designer, I also bring strong graphic design sensibilities and software skills to my work.

Which crowdsourcing organizations do you work with?
I’m an exclusive iStockphoto photographer and have worked with them since 2003.

Tell us a bit about your background.
I came to the world of stock photography after trying out a few different paths. I left school very early, at 14, and worked in boutiques and did some traveling. In my 20’s, I studied and worked in translation, [Lise is a francophone] but found it just wasn’t for me. So in 2000, at the age of 36, I went back to school again, this time for Web/multimedia at a local technical college (called a CEGEP in Quebec). I did really well and started at Web design shop. The digital photography “bug” bit me soon after that.

Describe what your workspace (static or mobile) looks like.
For a while I worked out of my apartment, and then I had a rented studio space for about a year. Today, I live in a downtown condo in Québec City with my partner, Louis Leblanc, and we work in a sun-filled loft studio that’s actually part of an old ice factory; there were many of these factories throughout Québec before the days of refrigeration. We just purchased the studio this year and are still getting settled. It’s a fantastic work space.

What other work to you do, if any?
I’m 100% focused on stock photography. I love it so much that I haven’t even felt the need to take a vacation for quite a while. All my trips are for stock-related events and visits. For example, I just went to the iStock event in Slovenia, which was great, and I’ve also gone to Las Vegas, Boston and New York for photo events.

Who inspires you?
I admire many stock photographers, art photographers and designers. However, I try not to look at them too often as I’m focused on evolving my own style of photography.

Any favorite media?
When I do look to other media, it’s mostly in print – for design inspiration, general trend information, and technical innovation news. I think my favorites are ID, Wallpaper, Wired, Communication Arts, and Zink.

Do you have a personal blog or Web site?
My personal Web site is www.lisegagne.com and www.istockphoto.com/lisegagne is my stock photography page.

How did you get started in this new kind of work?
Since I was a teenager, I’ve always had a camera hanging around my neck and loved photography. But, back then, I didn’t know you could make a living doing it. At the Web design company, we always needed photos for our clients’ sites and they didn’t have big budgets, so I got on the Web and found iStockphoto. But one day, a client needed a very specific kind of workplace photo with people collaborating on projects and iStock didn’t have those types of photos; there were mostly artistic portraits of people. So I went to a pawn shop on my birthday and bought myself my first digital camera, a point-and-shoot 2.0 megapixel Canon A40. It was all we needed for the Web and I started taking lots of photos. It was great because if I also submitted my own photos to iStock, I would get credits and I could just exchange them for other photos – a good deal! After that, I couldn’t wait to get home from the office. I’d rush home, dress Louis up in business suits and take photos of him and me. It was hilarious! We’d dress up in all kinds of outfits. I thought about (and talked about) photography all the time, started selling some photos to other people, and eventually the Web company let me go. I saw it as the opportunity to become a full-time photographer. I purchased my first Canon digital SLR two years ago.

Why have you decided to embrace crowdsourcing?
I have complete freedom working this way. I can do anything I want with no constraints. I can work when I want, on any subject I want, and have full creative liberty. Also, I’m a very shy person, so this style of work is fantastic. Sometimes, when I’m at stock photo events, I fear people may think I’m a snob because I’m so quiet and I feel most comfortable speaking in French. I really like working over the Web and on the phone, it’s much easier for me.

What’s a typical day like for you?
I get up very early, around 5:30 or 6:00 a.m., make my coffee, check out the forums on the site, do some photo inspection work for iStock (who pays me a fee for each one checked) and go to the loft studio at around 8 a.m. I continue to do photo inspections until about 11:00 a.m. and after that I focus on my photography. I may be sourcing clothing or props, coordinating models, scouting a location, working on some post processing, or just shooting in my studio.

Has this opened any new doors for you?
It has opened up the whole world for me. We travel quite often since we started this photography adventure and I now have friends around the world like Bruce, Brianna, Shaun, Brent, Henk, Eva, Luis and many more ... and of course, my best friend and confidant, JJRD.

Why do you think you’ve been so successful?
I’ve had feedback from people who have purchased my photos and they tell me they like the natural, happy, relaxed feeling of my photography. They don’t want the photos to feel static, or too staged, and neither do I. Another thing is that I think in advance about themes or sets of photographs, and I plan my shoots (and any photo editing required) with that in mind. After all, it’s how the clients will want to use the photos: to show a realistic lifestyle. I’d also describe myself as very disciplined in how I manage my time, and I’m a perfectionist about the quality of my work.

Any advice for a newcomer to crowdsourced work?
Persevere! Just try it. You’ll make lots of mistakes, I know many of my first photos were not great, but I kept trying. You will get better and better. Also remember that quality is more important than quantity. In a very, very busy week, after a couple of big shoots, I may upload 30 or 40 photographs at a maximum. Clients will always come back to your portfolio because they know you have quality work – and they have tight deadlines. And finally, you need to innovate. Get very familiar with what others are doing and ensure that, while you’re in tune with the trends, you’re providing the clients with something they haven’t seen yet.

One of Lise’s very first successful stock photos (2003)

Do you think people can earn a living solely from participating in crowdsourcing projects?

For sure. Back when I started out in 2003, I didn’t make too much money at all, but in the last couple of years, I’ve made a good living from this and, together, Louis and I have a comfortable lifestyle. When iStock changed their royalty program and prices a couple of years ago, my small salary probably went up tenfold. Today, I get 40 percent of every sale of my photos and I also earn a bit for my photo inspection services on top of that – but my inspection work is really more to be able to contribute to the iStock community. Lately, I hear from a growing number of people who are doing this full-time.

Is crowdsourcing here to stay?
Yes, I think there is a strong wave of this style of work and it’s continuing to grow. In terms of photography, I think of the small design shops and small businesses that don’t have big budgets. In the past they used to have to “borrow” images, find low-cost ways to generate visuals, re-use the same images over and over, or simply do without. Now they can affordably access what they need, and they can even source custom work in this way.

Any challenges you’re facing?
Finding models is probably my biggest challenge. Some are concerned that their images may be altered inappropriately because of Internet access to the high resolution files. However, some of my models have gone on to work on major advertising campaigns for clients who initially used their stock images. It seems that European models may be more open to this kind of work.

What’s your favorite project worked on to date?
I don’t have any real favorites, I love them all. When I have my camera in my hands, I’m happy. It’s the process that I enjoy the most.

What’s it like to see a finished product that features your work?
Well, I’m very happy to see it. My photos sell around the world, but they seem to be very popular in my home province of Québec, so I see them a lot. Sometimes it’s quite a surprise, especially when Louis and I are the models in the photos! I was in the grocery store recently and there I was in an ad, so I told the other shoppers: “That’s me!” I’ve even seen my work featured in television programs. And when we travel, we’re almost always sure to see my photos during our trip – even in Slovenia. Some photographers have criticized me because very big companies like IBM are using my photos in campaigns and they’re only paying a few dollars, but I’m always happy to see my work being used.

What’s your next project?
Real life or what I call “environmental” photography is the next phase for me. It’s the next logical step into the natural, realistic style that my clients want. We’ve almost finished transforming the photography studio environment. We’ve purchased new furniture in pale colors and classic design so the models will show well. I’ve incorporated my photography lighting into the loft’s surroundings and it will stay up. The office environment set up is almost ready too. So the entire space will be used as a photo studio, featuring models in natural, real life settings.

Any ideas for a next wave of crowdsourcing collaboration?
I feel crowdsourcing is a strong trend in a lot of creative areas. For example, Louis is a videographer and his stock video clips are starting to sell quite well online.

Anything else you’d like to add?
I had a very personal goal when I decided to become a stock photographer. Louis and I want to adopt a child from China one day, and it’s quite expensive. So when I started out, I set the goal that my work would allow me to pay for all the adoption and travel costs with my earnings. Within one year I had saved up all that I needed. I believed right from the beginning that I could be successful at this, even when my friends and family thought that I was only dreaming. I’m doing what I love and it’s changed my life.

Lise’s all-time biggest-selling iStockphoto image

Photos © iStock International Inc. 2006.
All photos courtesy of iStockphoto.com and/or Lise Gagné.

Comments

[Alan]

Congratulation Shaz great collaboration with CS.com and an interesting interview. It’s nice to have the pics. The comment from Lise Gagné, “some photographers have criticized me because very big companies like IBM are using my photos in campaigns and they’re only paying a few dollars, but I’m always happy to see my work being used,” stood out for me. She appears to be moving the onus from institutions that might still working with the traditional business model, to her personal satisfaction with emphasis on the artistic process and satisfaction with the arrangement regarding minimal payment for work provided. What sort of framework/understanding might be needed to make the variances between these two points of view reconcilable? Are they? It’s obvious that we are in the beginning stages of a huge metamorphosis as the crowd gain increased access. Is this just a let the dust settle thing or can one come to grips with the more difficult issues like unions, loss of income for the traditionalists and the temptation for institutions to take advantage with a possible cut in quality, the new Gannet model and the difference between trained journalists and novice reporters. Is the economic bottom line going to be the engine that drives the process as crowdsourcing unfolds? Alan.

[ShazzMack]

Thanks, Jeff!
And thanks to you, Alan, for your thoughtful comments and questions.
I had a related discussion with some of my college students on Tuesday. I asked one student to assume the role of a traditional fine art photographer, and another assumed the role of Lise -- a thought-provoking session ensued with healthy debate about pros, cons, risks, issues, upsides, downsides, pricing models, copyright, visual homogeneity, creativity, democracy, etc. etc. etc. Good stuff.

I agree that this is but one sign of an important shift we're experiencing in commerce - many acknowledge that a pendulum has certainly swung away from corporate control of content to creator control. (When I tell my students that - in the old days - I used to have to PAY to get a stock photo CATALOGUE they are quite dumbfounded!) Yet the monetized distribution systems of this content still seem to be (eventually) aggregating back up to the larger corporations. You ask, "What framework can manage these seemingly disparate valuation systems?" I'm not sure, though I think *Hugh Macleod* over at gapingvoid.com may have some worthy thoughts in his Hughtrain and Global Microbrand writings.

There are some interesting issues that I've seen raised in the discussion around crowdsourcing, such as:
- Does something have to have a price to be valuable?
- Is professional talent inherently superior to amateur talent -- if the only criterion for being called professional is that you're paid (or you have paid handsomely for an official education/designation)?
- Why would someone work for free? (My finance friends are stumped by this one :-) I often consult pro bono - good karma!)
- Does the "self-selection/volunteer" angle when performing crowdsourcing for low pay necessarily mean the worker is still not exploited? (Remember that some crowdsourcing work is also relatively well paid. Is it the model we dislike or the payscale?)

*
Shazz

[Alan]

Thanks for the thoughtful response Shazz. You had to PAY! I know that my soon to be college aged offspring would also fall over with such a preposterous idea.
Value and price, in my mind are not necessarily connected. Look at taxes and inner city education today. Or to play devils advocate, after having been forced into a legal process to get an appropriate education for one of my kids, a top Chicago Special Education lawyer, who cost an arm and a leg for two one hour meetings, forced a rapid return that was certainly very well worth the one-time hemorrhaging expenditure. A legal aid or volunteer might not have been so successful.
Professional talent need not be superior but work experience in any particular field brings with it valuable and a specifically focused skill set.
I love the good karma attitude. On a more serious note if there is an organic, can I say karmic, relationship to ones vocation then the almighty $$ slips more easily from its prominence on the must have list. I spent many years doing what I loved to do before I realized - - - - - but isn’t that just what young people do?
The “exploited” question would require such a lengthy response; suffice it to say unions today are being busted whilst institutionalized pensions are going to become a thing of the past. I might willingly volunteer my time but who has responsibility for policy development and implementation that affects the masses? Exploitation is all about conscious, organized manipulation for economic gain. The onus is on employers.
It is not a question of like or dislike but rather how is our culture being shaped, by whom and for what reason. Isn’t that a rhetorical question? Gannet might be an early example once the truth hits the fan! The individual has self determination/freedom to choose whilst the institution has moral obligation to those under its guardianship! Or is that just plain old fashioned?
Regards, Alan

[Bruce Livingstone]

It's ironic that Lise lives in an old ice factory. It doesn't really have much to do with crowdsourcing, but does demonstrate the demise of an industry replaced by advancing technology, millions of home and industrial refrigeration units and a willingness to embrace those products. I believe we're witnessing a similar transformation of the environment and opportunity in digital arts. Accessible and inexpensive equipment, instant access to educational resources, and a willingness or creative motivation have all played a role in what I believe is a digital renaissance. The discussion about the value of people, or even a picture, is dubious. A picture in a sea of billions, is less valuable than the one which reaches its ideal audience. It's the relationships we have with artists like Lise that are valuable.

Lise is the iStockphoto Powerhouse, Diva and mentor to thousands. I'm very proud of her and what she's accomplished.

[ShazzMack]

Thanks Alan and Bruce for your comments. Interesting analogy Bruce [iStock's founder] presents; will we (one day) look at traditional distribution models in the digital arts much like my father reminisces about the ice vendor who used to trundle up and down the streets of Montreal with a horse and cart, selling ice from these factories to homes and businesses? Probably.

I fully agree that "value" has a much broader meaning than the price/pay aspect that gets rehashed without sufficient consideration of the other perspectives, such as those raised above. While fair payment for work done is certainly of critical importance, it is not the only form of value we must consider. And as Alan says above, the significant labour/rights/power/etc. issues arising from this trend are far-reaching and cannot be fully discussed in short form.

The question of like/dislike (payscale or model) that I raised above is not rhetorical in my view. It is useful when analysing any system to use a reduction method whereby one hypothetically removes (or radically alters) a (seemingly) important aspect of the system and then re-evaluates it. By radically altering various aspects of the crowdsourcing model (pay, control, distribution control, copyright, skill level, etc.) and reconsidering the model anew, one can focus in on what aspects of crowdsourcing make some people claim "freedom" while others claim "exploitation."

With all this said, it does remain that Lise is an extraordinary person, whom I hope to meet in person one day. Very inspiring.

[Jeff Greenberg]

Thanks to Lise G. for locking into "microstock pricing" 100% & therefore not competing as fully with "macrostock pricing" shooters.

[Bryan Zmijewski]

While I like the concept of crowdsourcing, I think Bruce captures the essence of why Lise has been successful with stock photography. It's less about a business model and more about the relationship.

Lise isn't averse to risk --in fact, I'd be willing to bet that she really *enjoys* shooting photos, while she continues to learn and gives back to the community by reviewing *other* people's work. iStockPhoto is the missing ingredient for Lise- it's the venue in which all of these pieces come together- it's validation. Most people spend their lives searching for fulfillment. Microstock gives people an opportunity to discover pieces of themselves they've not been allowed to explore in their day jobs. Surely this is not all about money- but at 30 cents a pop it's a public validation of their talent. I call this soul-tapping --when we help people combine their passions and talents in a way that personally and publicly nourishes that part of their personality/soul/life.

[Che McPherson]

WOW... what a nice read thanks Shaz... Lise is definately a HUGE inspiration to me and I know many others... Hi5 for you Shaz and Hugs for Lise.

[Alex]

Great interview, finally I could read more about this well know photographer of the microstock community. She is for sure a truly source of inspiration for many fellow photographers.

[Alan]

Bryan, I think you have it dead right! The portal, iStockPhoto in this case, is well described as the magic element that gives the possibility of “binding” an individual’s professional and personal biography together thereby bringing, here are your words, “fulfillment, validation, nourishment” and last but not least “soul life” together. The reality that “most” cannot find fulfillment in their “day jobs” is the part that rubs me. Is it an indictment of an educational process that pressures kids who are still in the early stages of their formal education to choose career paths that they can only have an abstracted relationship to? And that also might possibly be the part that makes crowdsourcing a choice for many individuals. Notwithstanding that possibility though is still the reality that soul tapping comes with much responsibility! My hope is that the moral fiber of those who are doing the tapping reaches out front of the phenomena itself to provide healthy balance, $$$$, to both crowdsourcers and the parts of industry that cannot escaped the traditional model. Hope lives eternal. Alan.

[Shazz]

@Bryan, thanks for the thoughtful comments. Lise is, as she says, "happy when she's taking photos" and working with/for the iStock community. The fact that she makes a good living at it is a bonus for her. Personal fulfillment and a creative outlet are her main drivers still.

@Che and Alex, glad you enjoyed the piece. She's a special person for sure.

@Alan, I agree that our whole "early career tracking" system is completely ineffective and sad. In addition to teaching college kids, I volunteer with Junior Achievement just so that I can get in front of grade 9 students and talk about the endless life/work possibilities that lay before them (and paid work is only part of the picture) ... you can feel the energy in the room rise as we dream out loud, together.

I believe we're all wired to be creative [artistic and otherwise] -- outlets like microstock and photosharing communities help us tap into that essential need.

[Bryan Zmijewski]

Alan and Shazz, my insights come from leading the troops at LuckyOliver, a new alternative to iStockphoto. I've spent the better part of five months setting the foundations for a community and my experiences have led me to the previous conclusions. In addition, I've spent the last 8 years helping over 60 start-ups deal with similar issues of attracting customers.

On the second point, I'm not sure it's really an issue of pressuring kids into a specific career track. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite. I wrote about a study in our blog:

http://www.luckyoliver.com/blog/132/Creative+Youth

Kids today don't get enough attention or guidance. There are plenty of options- there's just a lack of role-models to give kids direction.

[Jeff Howe]

@All commentators ...

Man, what a great thread! Thanks for giving Lise's interview such thoughtful consideration and teasing out the most provocative questions raised therein.

@Alan and Shazz

I'm particularly intrigued by Shazz's question regarding exploitation and how it relates to the question of volition. Simply, if I'm a volunteer can I be "exploited," in the sense we commonly ascribe to that term? I've come to the conclusion that we can, but with some qualifications. Alan asks, "Who has responsibility for policy development and implementation that affects the masses? Exploitation is all about conscious, organized manipulation for economic gain."

Alan's answer is the employer, and I'm won't to agree. In cases in which the contract between crowdsourcer and crowdsourcee is explicit I hold to my original position that any charge of exploitation is awfully hard to make stick. But the crowdsourcing model can easily be twisted to capitalize on community contributions that were made without any intent to create value for a commercial entity. (Any TV show poaching from Youtube for free amateur content would seem to be an apt example of this.) As crowdsourcing becomes more prevalent, I think individuals and communities as a collective entity need to be wary of whose pockets they may be lining.

[Shazz]

Hey Jeff, thanks much for the comments and thoughts. I believe exploitation can happen in any form of "exchange" - paid or unpaid. Perhaps it's less to do with money and more to do with control and the locus of power. "Who owns the content?" will continue to be a lively debate going forward ... within a creative commons context and otherwise. Of course, this is not a new phenomenon. We know that, well before the Web increased access to and sale of creative works, there was a long history of the (re)sale of traditional/folk art not lining the original artists' pockets.

Perhaps the transparency enabled by the Web will continue to facilitate a more rapid and ongoing disaggregation of any emerging corporate marketplaces, turning the locus of control back to the creators again and again? (Hugh Macleod, Seth Godin and others have written elegantly about micro-biz consumer-driven markets.)

[Daniel Bastille]

My English is not good enought to fully understand all the subtleties there. Too much unusual thoughts and expressions.

Just want to land on the basic ground.

Lise is a professional. The very basic is a professional own his living by his work. In regards of this basic ground Lise IS a professional. The only one who's promoted as a sample of successful microstock shooter.

A professional who is competing with amateurs.
The vast majority of them owns not more than $200.00 a month with as much as 2 000 picts uploaded. (BTW: How much does she realy earns? Have she a retirement plan? Does she owne her house?)

A professionak who shows than Royalty Free content for livestyle is overpriced. Producing such a low creative picts on the production line is easy and cheap in regard of what could be creative and quality pictures. Would her landscape pictures be as marketable? Would her pictures display for a 3x4 billboard?

A question I have asked her: What she's thinking about the 400 million dollars Getty spent recently to buy iStock?
I know quite well two people, one is leading the economy in an European governement, the other one is leading a famous worldwide company, both of them got private lectures of a famous autor about wired economy at an astronomical price. Those who are "harnessed" are working for free while the smart guys behind are becoming millionaires.
Thus my question: How long this will last before the mass understand they are ripped off?

Enjoying to see his pictures published is part of is a mental desease called "narcissism". And Narcis didn't last very long, in ancien Greek mythology he's ends shortly by a suicide.

They'll be on earth even more narcissistics than Lise is. They'll soon give their picts for free, makin even more profit for the website's owners. (BTW, it's a good idea for a webdesigner, people could even pay to see their picts published, just include Google ads and you'll become soon millionaire. You may call it YouPict. This idea is for free).

[Secular Atheist]

I'm dumbfounded that anyone can think that its a good thing that big corporations can now obtain work for a few dollars that they might have had to pay a living wage for in the past.

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas... but you 'creatives' seem to be doing just that.

And thanks for posting the 'best selling photograph', I think it makes it quite clear just how much creativity and artistry we can expect from Crowdsourcing...

[Daniel Bastille]

How many Lise among microstock shooters? How many usual photographers had been so heavily promoted?
How many microstock displaying such professionaly shot pictures?
Is Lise in some way subsidised: art direction or money help...
For how long Lise won't shoot for RF, fully owned content RF, OnREquest picts and all the activities that dump their prpfession. Included quality dumping.
Is Lise real or is her a fake profile created for promotion?

[QT Luong]

The impressions that I have from reading the interview and viewing Lise's work is that she is a talented and creative photographer with a great sense of design, the subjects that she likes to photograph are always in great demand on the stock photography market, she loves what she does and is dedicated and hard working.

With all those attributes, I believe that Lise would have been sucessful in *any* stock photography venue, not just the microstocks. In fact, it is possible that she would have been even more successful with non-micro venues.

Lise is a "star". A star shines everywhere. However, what the concept of crowdsourcing does is precisely leverage the work of a crowd *without* need for stars, but rather by taking advantage of a large amount of tiny contributions.

PS: Sorry for the initial mistaken comment on Andy's blog that he was kind enough to delete. istockphoto has gone a long way since I checked them out years ago.

[Non-micro Photographer]

There is an elephant in this room that everyone seems to ignore. The value of images is not problematic, as has been presented, it is simply the value of a critical component in a marketing/advertising/publishing usage. For a large corporation using an image in a high profile manner, that value runs into thousands of dollars. As with all forms of exploitation, it's only a matter of time before the workforce gains awareness of their situation and asserts a measure of control over the value of their work. Crowdsourcing is a for-profit innovation, we are yet to see labour movement innovations to match. But the profits are being made now, and that's really all that matters. So kudos to the crowdsourcers. 'Never give a sucker an even break' still holds, thank goodness...

[Didier]

Go Lise, Go ! :-)

[Shazz]

Thanks for the continued comments and visits to this interview.
@Non-micro photographer: the exploitation angle gets discussed a lot in the context of crowdsourcing and I appreciate your concern and pov. However, in Lise's case (and many others) they would say that, to the contrary, this model has given them freedom and control over their creative and professional lives, in a way that the traditional corporate employer-employee model never did. Many of my friends who earn their living in the world of art and illustration would say the same thing about the gallery-artist or agent-artist model. One wonders how rapidly these too will change.

As an update: in the two months since this interview was published, Lise has sold over 20,000 more images. As Didier says above, Go Lise, Go!

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